I grew up speaking Spanish, and because I know Spanish, I automatically know all the Latin root words. Latin is a dead language. It’s dead. Nobody speaks it. With the same amount of time you would use to study Latin, you can learn a language that you can use to communicate with other people. Millions of people, for example, speak Spanish.
At the risk of ticking people off (and the more you’re ticked off, the more it’s probably true), I would like to say that people who study Latin are snobs. Yep. Go on and throw tomatoes. I’m good at dodging.
Look, if you have a classical bent to your homeschool, you’re obviously a thinking person. You’ve chosen the most rigorous style of homeschooling, probably for the sake of your children having a better, higher education than you did. (I myself have a classical bent, since I was a literature major in college and was an English teacher for years. So don’t get mad that I don’t like the classical mind set, because this would not be true.)
All I’m saying is that the study of Latin is dreadfully boring. You’re punishing your children. Are you just checking off the boxes of what you should do for a classical education just to say you did it? Or worse, to boast about your children? Then refer to paragraph 2. (Ouch, that wasn’t a tomato. Keep reading. Maybe you’ll like me after all.)
If you absolutely must study a classical language, choose Greek. At least with the study of Greek you can understand the Word of God better. Plus, the people of Greece actually speak Greek. I’ve been to Greece, and I’ve heard Greek being spoken. It’s definitely a live language. So, you see, I’m not dissing all classical languages, just the ones that have no practical use.
The bottom line is this: our time is precious and limited. Don’t you want the greatest amount of good done in the least amount of time? If you can actually learn the Latin roots while at the same time learning a real live language that is the second language of our country, why not do it?
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Tags: Ancient Rome, classical, Homeschooling, languages, Latin, unit study
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I am sorry you felt that Latin is boring. Many Latin programs are into the drill, drill, drill type of study, which I agree with you, is boring. However, my 13-year old son (and 19 year old daughter who has already graduated) love Latin. We don’t drill. We just do a lot of translation. He loves learning where the roots of our language come from. (BTW-They both study Greek as well.) My son will probably start a modern language as well in high school, but only if he wants to. With his foundation in Latin and Greek, he will be able to pick up any Indo-European language he wishes to in the future without too much difficulty. True, he could have gone at it from the other end and learned Spanish, say, and learned Latin if he wanted to, but I don’t think he would have enjoyed that path as well. True, there are some who learn Latin just to be snobs, but not all Latin learners are such. Careful about sterotyping too much. : )
I had so many comments, both good and bad, on the Homeschool Channel. It was almost like a formal debate. I think I opened a can of worms…
Many people think homeschoolers are snobs! Being a native Spanish speaker I would agree why teach Latin? Yet, I’m teaching Latin. It’s not really a big deal just songs to the Latin conjugations. But my husband wants me to teach classically so…
I’m so glad you weren’t offended, Esther! I read one of your blog entries about Latin class, and it was funny. My “Writing with Style” blog entry explains why I used the word “snob” (even though it was a generalization, I wanted to get a reaction so that people would re-evaluate why they were doing it.)
Yes I read some of the debate on the Homeschool Channel. You’re a hoot! My husband came home and told me that he heard Matt Freeman (?) on the radio talking about your anti-Latin post! I think it’s fun you’re getting all that attention…and I get to claim you as my bloggie friend!
Jason keeps telling me that I should blog for the Homeschool Channel, but I don’t really blog about homeschooling all that much…
I totally agree! (Okay, I haven’t had the chuzpah to each a language much at all) We’ve dabble in beginning Spanish, and I tried a certain classical vocabulary roots program (you know the one) which had my daughters crying in agony. Since then I haven’t ever been tempted to teach my kids Latin. Spanish is MUCH more useful! Or around here, even Russian would be something useful, considering Spokane’s enormous slavic population. And yes, I’ve found many “classical” homeschoolers who teach Latin are also snobbish about the whole thing. Aren’t we all homeschoolers? Thanks for speaking out what many of us have been thinking!
You seem to write like an intelligent individual, so I was a little surprised that you seem to imply that ancient Greek is spoken in modern Greece.
You also seem to imply that the only benefit to studying Latin is a knowledge of word roots. You don’t mention any others.
I can understand your desire to “rock the boat”, and perhaps it is needed, but I’m not sure that sacrificing accuracy is the appropriate way to get your point across.
How odd to suggest that Latin is of no practical use. Even more odd to suggest that those who teach it are snobs. But hey! I don’t mind being called a snob. LOL
My kids (3 and 6) absolutely love learning Latin. It is far from boring. If i was teaching my children Latin thinking they were going to require it in order to verbally communicate with somebody, then i would be crazy to do so. Latin is not taught for that reason, so it is strange to compare learning Latin with learning Spanish or French etc. Latin does however, make learning Spanish and other Italic languages far easier. It makes the learning of English easier too for that matter, aswell as all the other huge benefits of learning it which you appear to have totally overlooked.
don’t learn it if you don’t want but just because you don’t want to learn doesn’t mean people who learn latin are snobs…you are absolutely snob by saying that.
For those of you who did not read my follow-up article “Writing with Style,” my last paragraph explains why I wrote this comical attack on Latin:
“But the most important thing to me when writing this article was to stop people from making a decision based on sinful motivation. Not all classical homeschoolers have sinful motivation when choosing to study Latin. Some of them have thought about it and prayed about it, and studying Latin is the right decision for them. But after schmoozing with homeschoolers for a decade, I’ve seen that many (if not most) classical homeschoolers do Latin as a matter of pride. If I see sin, I will call people on their sin, so help me God, even if I lose sales. Even if I tick people off. I took a chance. I hurled myself off a cliff, so to speak, to see what would happen. And the result was better than I imagined. People are being set free from a weight of bondage that they thought they were under. And for this reason, I consider my article a success.”
We have been learning L&G for about 10 years now, and it is truly boring. It’s like calculus: you know you’ll never use it, it’s a huge waste of time. You’d rather jump in front of a bus. Until one day you find that you can read Latin and Greek in the original without a dictionary, and that you can figure out rare English words quickly from the L&G that you know, and that you intuitively know a lot about English that other English speakers cannot grasp. What a wonderful feeling. Some might call me a snob but I’ve bygod earned it!
Discipulus Rusty S.P.D.
Actually you might need to use calculus. Vale!
I think that it is pointless learning it on its own but if you are learning it while learning Spanish or French then it is really useful. Do you agree?
Yes.
Kendra White (from the Homeschool Channel) says:
You have guts
I love it! No tomatoes from me. Though, I would like to hear a counter argument from some promising Latin studying families…
I answered:
LOL! I would LOVE to hear a rebuttal. Bring it on….
Hillary Reynolds (from the Homeschool Channel) says:
LOL-Susan, you rock!! Even a disagreeing, Latin-loving hs’er would have to appreciate your moxie!
I am actually freed by what you say. I have a classical bent to my homeschool approach, and was feeling guilt for ‘not getting around’ to the Latin part. My friends all tell me that by studying the roots their kids will be able to pick up many languages easily, but I have to wonder about that since I know a little spanish (more Texmex) and a little Italian, and while similar, the tenses are still different enough to need serious studying for fluency. Besides, what about these European countries where there kids speak 2-3 languages fluently at young ages? I haven’t heard any of them say it’s because of learning Latin, but rather just teaching it informally during younger years.
My husband’s thought is that if anyone’s going to take time to learn a second language, learn either Spanish or Mandarin because Spanish is the second most-widely used language in US, and because Mandarin is becoming the most-widely used language in the business realm.
Thanks for your gumption, Ma’am! I appreciate it greatly
Mary Friedman (from the Homeschool Channel) says:
Hey, ladies, as a proponent of Latin studies I would love to weigh in right now but probably won’t get around to it until later in the week. (I probably have a post on the topic of Latin somewhere on this [Homeschool Channel] site, in an earlier thread). Susan, I do agree that Greek is a great language to study. Our children actually do 2 years each of Latin, Greek, and Hebrew before they graduate high school. So no argument from me on that one! But I won’t throw any tomatoes!
I replied:
I can’t wait to hear what you have to say, Mary. I was hoping someone would speak up. I love a good, friendly debate. Thanks for not throwing tomatoes!
Anne C. (from the Homeschool Channel) says:
We started studying Latin when my boys were little. We quit. Now though….realizing that our time is so short we would rather focus on Christian Worldview, Apologetics, American History, The constitution, Economics….computers..and Spanish because we are in California. In CA if you work for the state or County you can get a raise if you speak another language!! Not Latin though.
Our world is so insecure…so much is happening. I think we need to be very practical in light of the days in which we live. Good post and subject. I’m also looking forward to hearing from Mary and the others.
Brooke Preston (from the Homeschool Channel) says:
“Latin is a language as dead as dead can be. It killed the ancient Romans–and now it’s killing me”
As a Latin teacher, this is the number one phrase that I hear from kids entering my Latin 1 class. And honestly, it makes me laugh every time I hear one of them use it – laugh because I see the nervousness behind phrase. I think Latin is one of the only languages that comes with a reputation of dread – maybe something that carries over from the reputation of the ones who originally spoke the language.
As I read your article, I notice three main arguments that I would like to address:
1. Studying Latin makes you a snob.
2. Studying Latin is boring, and therefore a punishment and should not be studied.
3. Studying Latin is a waste of time.
If you do not mean to sling tomatoes, then I would suggest not making this argument. If you have met people who studied Latin that were snobs, then I’m sorry that that was the representation of the language that you got. But no one appreciates being put in a box with a label on it. Any area of study comes with its snobs – musical snobs that say that only pure classical music should be listened to, literature snobs that say that any current fiction is sugar coated fluff that should be ignored, math or science snobs that believe their field to be the highest field of study there is, etc. No field is devoid of its share of snobs, but it does not follow that someone should be labeled as a snob simply for studying Latin. I teach roughly around 30-60 Latin students a year, and would love to introduce you to some non-snobbish kids, parents, and other teachers. I myself cringe at the thought of coming off as snobbish to anyone and definitely don’t look down on anyone simply because they haven’t studied Latin and I have. That would be unkind and not very Christ-like at all.
Boring. As someone who taught English, I’m laughing that you used this as an argument. ANY subject that a student doesn’t like has the potential to be boring and seen as a punishment. I am not a fan of math or chemistry myself and would rather have 8 Latin classes than have to take ONE of either of those. I remember my college English and Math professors starting off the semester with their speeches to those who were in the class because it was a general education class that they totally understood that more than likely they hated the subject and would try to make it as painless as possible. Liberal arts colleges exist though because they recognize that is more beneficial to the student to be well rounded in their knowledge than to just learn one area. But simply because an area is hard or hated by the student does not make it irrelevant. That argument would make every subject area irrelevant. The great thing about Latin though is it is optional! If a student doesn’t like Latin or can’t seem to master it, it isn’t the only language out there that they can study! Everyone needs to study another language, but I’ve noticed that people are good at different languages. Not everyone has the tongue to master Spanish, but can tackle something like Latin or ancient Greek. Granted, Latin is a rigorous language. There is a lot of memorizing and grammar rules, but I feel like whether or not it is “boring” is determined by the teacher. I am not doing my job properly if I cannot make the language come alive to my students. Even if they don’t like the language and are only there because their parents want them to be, I can make their time in my class enjoyable and lead them toward at least an appreciation. I don’t like math, but my college math professor did an amazing job of helping me to enjoy the class and get a lot out of it. She definitely was not a math snob.
As to the 3rd argument, I will point you toward Cheryl Lowe, writer of the Latina Christiana curriculum. She was three arguments as to why Latin is a good choice of study:
“First, Latin teaches English better than English teaches English. “The study of one’s own language,” says classicist Charles Bennett, “is achieved incomparably better by the indirect method of studying another language … It is because translation from Latin to English … is so helpful to the student who would attain mastery of his own language … that I find the full justification for the study of Latin.” In other words, education based on the study of the child’s own language is inferior to one based on Latin.
Second, the mental discipline Latin instills in students makes it the ideal foreign language to study. Latin originated with the Romans, and their character pervades the language they created. The Roman, says R. W. Livingstone, “disciplined his thought as he disciplined himself; his words are drilled as rigidly as were his legions, and march with the same regularity and precision.”
Latin is systematic, rigorous, analytic. Its sentences march “serried, steady, stately, massive, the heavy beat of its long syllables and predominant consonants reflecting the robust, determined, efficient temper” of the Romans themselves.
Latin is clearly superior to other languages in this regard. Like English, modern languages are “lax and individualistic,” reflecting the modern temper of those who speak them. Thinking that you can get the same benefit out of studying them is, in Livingstone’s words, “like supposing that the muscles can be developed by changing from one chair to the other.”
Third, Latin is the ideal tool for the transmission of cultural literacy. Latin is, in fact, the mother tongue of Western civilization—a language that incorporated the best ideas of the ancient Greeks, and which then, after the conversion of Rome, put them into the service of Christian truth.
Need a short answer? Mean Verbal SAT scores for 2006:
LATIN STUDENTS: 672
Spanish Students: 577
French Students: 637
German Students: 632
Hebrew Students: 623
Average for all other students: 503″
If you would like to read her article in full, you can find it here: http://www.memoriapress.com/articles/whylatin.html
I hope my comments (the book that they are) are helpful and empty of tomatoes. I respect your opinion, and hope that I have presented my thoughts in a respectful way. I’m not really looking to change your mind – arguing about something rarely accomplishes that – and I have studied Latin for too long to be swayed. I just wanted to represent another viewpoint. Spanish, Mandarin, and English are the main languages of our modern day world, but there is value in studying something that is ancient and formed many of the languages that we have today.
I replied:
I loved your highly articulated response. It shows that you have a logic that you’ve acquired, no doubt, from learning Latin.
“No field is devoid of its share of snobs.” I love it! So true! You prove my point.
I would love to study Latin from a teacher such as yourself, who actually loved the language. Unfortunately most homeschool students have to study Latin on their own with no help from their parents. This IS punishment, whether you would like to admit it or not. “Granted, Latin is a rigorous language,” you say. Because it is a rigorous language, I think it is unfair for parents to put that huge burden upon their sons and daughters when the parents aren’t willing to learn it themselves. And what homeschool parent has the time to do that? It’s just not practical.
As to Cheryl Lowe’s arguments, as pretty as they sound, they’re all bunk.
First, you don’t have to learn Latin to understand the anatomy of the English language better. Any language will do this for you, including Spanish, which has other advantages. Because I’m fluent in two modern languages, it was fairly easy for me to learn French and Greek as an adult (just for fun). I LOVE foreign language. I’ve traveled the world and used every bit of it. Latin, on the other hand, is way more useless than any other language. Unless a student is going into a field that requires it, it’s just plain mean to force a child through it.
Secondly, mental discipline can be achieved through the study of mathematics, higher science, logic, or even systematic theology of the Bible, for that matter. Who wants to be drilled rigidly as a legion of Roman soldiers? That’s supposed to be an argument in favor of studying Latin?
Thirdly, Latin has nothing to do with cultural literacy. Cultural literacy has to do with understanding the society in which we live, and the study of great literature would achieve that result better than the study of Latin.
If your statistics are correct on SAT scores, that is your best (and only) argument so far. But I’d like to see the statistics on the verbal scores of students who have enjoyed reading great literature. The scores might be even higher than the scores of the students who studied Latin. Another thing to keep in mind is that the students who study Latin also study great literature (because of the classical mind set), so who is to say that they didn’t score higher because of the literature?
Caitlin Walsh (from the Homeschool Channel) says:
As a Latin 4 student (I am now in my fifth year studying this “dead” language), I must admit my surprise at your generalizing declaration that “people who study Latin are snobs.” I’ve been called many things in my life – not all of them flattering! – but never have I been called a snob, and certainly not because of my classical education. Indeed, all the Latin students I have come in contact with over the course of my Latin education have been anything BUT snobs – kind, considerate, and very, VERY smart, but never snobby. As Ms. Preston pointed out, every field has its share of snobs. Rather than proving your point, this statement demolishes it. For, you claim that Latin students are necessarily snobby. But Ms. Preston points out that the Latin snobs of the world are not snobs because they study Latin any more than math snobs are snobs because they study math. Certainly you would disagree with a wide statement defaming math as a snobbish discipline because math snobs do exist. The same logic applies to the field of Latin. Perhaps homeschooling parents should spend less time editing their children’s education for fear of inherent elitism in foundational languages and more time ensuring that their children are models of the life of Christ, stalwart against the pressures to be rude that you say are brought on by the Latin language.
Your second claim is that Latin is boring – and I cannot completely disagree with you! The word I’ve often used to describe Latin might not be “boring,” but I’ve certainly found the words “challenging,” “difficult,” “stretching,” and “time-consuming” to be apt. But here I must disagree with most of my fellow teenagers and express my firm belief that students do not exist to be entertained. If my days were spent on subjects and activities that I did not sometimes find boring or challenging, I would be an expert at TV-watching and facebooking. I would also be an unbelievably shallow person. But because my parents have refused to allow me to stoop to society’s predisposition to adolescent mediocrity and have instead given me difficult subjects like Latin, and Calculus as a fifteen-year-old, and a history class based on primary sources, I know that I have improved as a human being through the perseverance and self-discipline these classes require.
Your responses to Ms. Lowe’s reasons for taking Latin left me puzzled. You say that Latin is not needed to learn the structure of the English language. I can’t help but disagree. Those have taken any Latin course likely understand how incredibly valuable the Latin language is in learning and understanding ALL the modern romance languages. Without Latin, Spanish, French, Italian, and even English would not exist today. For that legacy alone Latin deserves at least the consideration of today’s students and teachers. Remember that for hundreds of years Latin was the cornerstone of a well-rounded education, an education given to the likes of Sir Isaac Newton, who wrote his incredibly influential scientific publications in Latin. To ignore such a legacy because it is “boring” or replaceable is a discredit to the work and education of dozens of geniuses who have shaped our modern world. You then say that Latin is not necessary to develop a structured, rational mindset. As I mentioned previously, I am currently taking a very high form of mathematics; I am in my third year of rigorous science courses; I have studied traditional logic all five years of my homeschooled education; and I have been blessed by a thorough upbringing in a structured theological understanding of the Bible. None of these have compared to Latin in giving me a rational, structured mindset and thought process; I am indebted to the Latin language above all else for the way my mind operates, and for that alone this beautiful language has earned my lasting respect and appreciation. And while Latin IS no longer spoken today, it IS also the foundation for thousands of years of rich history – as Ms. Lowe pointed out in her third point – and should be remembered and studied to give us context for our twenty-first century culture.
I think it appropriate to end this too-long post with the first Latin phrase I ever learned: “Rident stolidi verba Latina.” Translation? “Fools laugh at the Latin language.”
God bless you!
Liz Bird (from the Homeschool Channel) says:
Dear whoever does not like Latin: I LOVE Latin and I love Greek. I have studied German and grew up in a German household. There is no such think as a “dead language” unless you attempt to go to the country of Latin and speak Latin. Then, the only thing wrong is that you could be blamed for being parochial and narrow minded for defining a language as a discipline that is primarily for speaking. Languages are NOT Primarily for speaking — but a combination of speaking, reading and writing. Latin is very useful and I have often expected my students, private, public and home school to have a year of it prior to any modern romance or non-romance language. Many of us Latin teachers teach more than one language and I cannot begin to tell you how many of my former Latin students have e-mailed me over the years to thank me for Latin. I have had Spanish and French natives, pre-med students, students who simply love the study of anything ancient for its own sake. Many people feel that even in our time os utilitarian leanings where if you can’t eat it, wear it, or spend it, it has no time, place, use, value in our society, Latin has a place. And of course, some people just like it and we are proud of being called “elite.” I just smile, polish off my “I am elite” button, and wear it with pride. The difference between being a trained person and an educated person is often subtle and can be tinged with snobbery — it is tradition that Americans have inherited. We who revere education over training will always be considered a little snooty and elitist. Esto (so be it) But my Latin students are cut above and I am not afraid to stand behind them and cheer
Discipulus Susan S.P.D.
Pro di immortalis! I am a student and I like to learn Latin. I don’t think it is boring or a punishment. At my school, we cannot take Greek unless we take Latin. Yes. I am not home schooled. I do not think studying Latin is a waste of time. Even though it is a dead language, you might be surprised to know there are people who speak Latin. No. I am not one of them. People is plural! I can see your points you’re making, but I am still going to take Latin. Vale!